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Transcript

Good morning. Today's date is. 00:00:02
Down there we go. There we go. 00:00:08
Good morning. Today's date is Friday, September 20, 2024. This will be the elite County Board of Equalization. 00:00:11
Appeals of. 00:00:20
Valuation appeal Hearing date. We are located in Globe, AZ and we are convening in the Supervisors Chambers, Board of Supervisors 00:00:23
Chambers or Board of Equalization. My name is Chuck Johnson. I'll be acting as the hearing officer. For those of you that are not 00:00:32
familiar with the protocol, let me apprise you the protocol and then we will have all those that anticipate or possibly. 00:00:41
Giving testimony during today's hearings. 00:00:51
To take the oath that will be administered by the by the clerk. So at this level of hearing, this is the quasi judicial hearing. 00:00:53
And so basically we follow up, we follow Robert's rules of orders order loosely. However, at this level, whether you're a 00:01:03
petitioner or representative or representing the assessor, the Arizona Legislature has placed the burden of proof. 00:01:13
On the petitioner at this level, what that means is has you come before a hearing at this level today? The assumption is at the 00:01:24
beginning of the hearing that the assessors determination or the assessors decision is accurate. So that places the burden on the 00:01:32
petitioner to overcome the burden. That's what's referred to as meeting the burden of proof now. 00:01:40
That's that's an act and a function of state law. 00:01:49
And so that's the burden if you are a petitioner that must be met in order for a ruling at this level to be rendered in your 00:01:54
favor. Now, a couple of things about that. 00:02:00
This is for the tax year 2025. So regardless of my decision at this level, either party has the right to appeal and you can appeal 00:02:07
my decision. The process of appeal is one of three ways you can actually go to, you can actually actually file suit in. 00:02:19
Superior Court in Gila County, or you can go directly to Tax Court. 00:02:32
In merit, and that's held in Maricopa County for the. 00:02:39
The entire state. 00:02:42
Tax, both Tax Court and obviously a Superior Court judge both have the authority and the jurisdiction to overrule my decision. At 00:02:43
that level. The burden of proof is no longer on the petitioner. It's handled as a regular court hearing where there's there is no 00:02:52
given assumption between right, between correct and incorrectness prior to the hearing. 00:03:02
But at this level there is that assumption, and so that is the burden that the petitioner must overcome. How do you overcome that 00:03:12
burden? By what's referred to as a preponderance of the evidence. What does preponderance mean? More likely so than not. So you 00:03:22
need to justify your case or your position in order to find me, to find for a ruling in your favor. Greater than 51% of the. 00:03:31
Fact or records Now that's the process with regards to the legality of this particular type of process. Now let's talk more about 00:03:42
jurisdiction. Jurisdiction here is limited to specifically market value. Market value is decided by the again the Arizona State 00:03:52
Legislature to be reflective of what a well informed. 00:04:02
Buyer, and also assuming a well informed seller would transact a property's transaction at market value with no undue stimuli on 00:04:12
either side. It's a little bit of a misnomer. Usually there's a reason people want to buy, and there's usually a reason people 00:04:22
want to sell, but the assumption is hypothetically that the property were to be transferred or sold as of. 00:04:32
January 1 of this year, 2024. And it's my decision to determine what that market value justly would be with those assumptions. 00:04:42
Well informed buyer, well informed seller. And of course this is all hypothetical. I'm not buying anyone's property today, but. 00:04:53
It's all it's, it's in, it's in the eyes of a hypothetical transaction. 00:05:07
So what does that mean? That means I do not have any jurisdiction over taxes, tax rate or tax payments. So that's that's just 00:05:14
something that this that this body board equalization does not have jurisdiction over. I am specifically limited to market value. 00:05:23
Therefore your testimony or your argument, your evidence, whatever should really be geared. 00:05:33
Towards that point, because that's really all I have jurisdiction over, I might, I might agree with you personally, I might, I 00:05:42
might take your point with regards to something other than market value. I might agree with you, but I don't have any jurisdiction 00:05:49
to really rectify that situation. 00:05:55
Now that covers the legality of our, of the of this particular hearing that also governs the burden, if you will, of this 00:06:04
particular hearing. So now let's talk about protocol. So how does the hearing, how does the hearing follow? I will, once everyone 00:06:12
has been sworn in, will follow the docket. That's in order. And if the assessor has a new recommendation, I'll open with an 00:06:19
opportunity for the assessor to. 00:06:26
Vocalize that new recommendation or to reaffirm their existing position with regards to the case, and assuming that there's no 00:06:33
change to the assessor's position, we'll move right into the hearing. The petitioner will then have the opportunity to basically 00:06:39
present the case. 00:06:45
Excuse me. What I mean by that is you can introduce evidence, you can call witnesses, you can introduce exhibits. If you have 00:06:52
appraisals, you can submit those. 00:06:57
Excuse me? 00:07:06
Thank you. 00:07:08
However, whatever evidence evidentiary issues you would like me to consider, that's your opportunity for. 00:07:11
For introduction and to read and to go over your case. 00:07:20
Then the floor, if you will, following Roberts rule of order we all recall from high school debate. We'll then shift to the 00:07:25
assessor and the assessor can then rebuke, repudiate, or. 00:07:31
Respond to Thank you to the to the petitioners opening argument. 00:07:41
At that point, assuming there are no other issues, the four will then, because the petitioner does in fact have the burden to 00:07:48
overcome, the petitioner gets the last word. So the four will then shift to the petitioner to address whatever issues. 00:07:57
Excuse me, may have been, may have been raised by the Assessor and to reiterate perhaps or present their final and closing at that 00:08:08
point. 00:08:13
No new testimony may be taken from either side. 00:08:21
If I'm able to at that point, and I usually am, I'll render a decision. 00:08:27
And if I'm not able to decide it because I need to do some additional research, whatever the case might be, if it if I'm unable to 00:08:33
render it, then your decision will be delayed for 10 business days, at which time I will do whatever is required to arrive at a 00:08:40
decision. And you'll be and both parties, both the the county and the petition will be notified by the clerk with regards to what 00:08:46
that. 00:08:53
To what my decision is. 00:09:00
With regards to the matter. 00:09:03
That in a more than probably. 00:09:06
A thumbnail sketch of what you want to hear is the process, the legality of it and the, the, the format and protocol that we will 00:09:11
be taking. Are there any questions before or, or, or well, we'll, we'll do that. Are there any questions before we go ahead and 00:09:18
move right into it this morning? 00:09:25
All right. 00:09:34
Yes, Sir. Good morning. How are you? I'm well. So the only thing that we can argue here today is the full cash value for 2025, 00:09:36
correct. Actually for 2024, it's actually January 1 of 2024, but it applies to 2025. That's really all that can be argued. We're 00:09:45
happy to hear whatever issues bring you here today, but our juris, but my jurisdiction is specifically limited to that. 00:09:54
So so if I went back 5 or 6-7 years. 00:10:04
That's OK to tell you my position may or may not. I can't. That'd be legal advice thinking I mean, you're, you're you're welcome 00:10:08
to, to present your case, however that whatever, whatever you want to do that constitutes that we're we're here to receive 00:10:15
whatever evidence, whatever testimony you know that you want to present to. But I, I can't direct you on how to appeal your case. 00:10:21
OK, thank you. There are those that can. 00:10:27
But they're usually like hourly, you know? 00:10:34
But you're you're welcome to to seek out those. 00:10:41
Any other questions? 00:10:44
All right, if you would be so kind, hats please, if you would. Thank you, Sir. And if you would say if you those of you that are 00:10:47
going to testify if you would. 00:10:51
Facebook clerk for the administration of the old. 00:10:58
Yeah, everybody, if you intend on getting testimony, I gotta split you in. Do you? Oh, man, Chuck, I forget. 00:11:03
Oh, yes, OK. Do you swear that all information provided in this in this hearing will be truthful? 00:11:14
Yes, thank you. Thank you. All right, First item on the docket that is set for 10:00 is. 00:11:19
Parcel #301-64-101. And it looks like the petitioner is Mr. Jeffrey Stringham. Is the petitioner, property owner, tax agent or 00:11:28
attorney representing this parcel present? 00:11:36
Not so the assessor's offices here, represented by. 00:11:47
And Miss Wellington being previously sworn, what is your position with regard to this matter? 00:11:51
I am asking that the courts. 00:11:57
Leave the forecast value where we have it at 998 to 84 and the limited at 550-2394. 00:12:00
So if you look at the analysis page, the second page in the red, when you look at his physical cash value score footage was 33578. 00:12:11
Then we did equitables comparables to his property and ours was 38962, which is more than has. So he's still under our equitable 00:12:23
values. And then our market approach was at 400 and 3414. So he's still under our market approach. And then the concept he gave 00:12:33
were like $5 off. 00:12:42
Difference. 00:12:52
Whose cost and the comps that he used were? 00:12:54
Not really in our range of the market analysis at that time. 00:12:57
OK. Thank you. Anything else? 00:13:04
No, upon receiving the testimony and packet is presented by the petitioner. No, I will still mark it as petitioners Exhibit A and 00:13:07
reviewing the basis for the petitioners grounds for appeal and after reviewing the document and the file contained in its entirety 00:13:13
is the decision of the hearing officer that A no change be entered with regard to this matter that will conclude this matter. 00:13:19
Thank you. 00:13:26
Next item on the docket is set for. 00:13:35
1020 and it appears to be in regards to parcel number 20104009. Petitioner is Billy and Michael Menechi. I'm sorry. 00:13:39
This is set for 10:20. It's a few minutes before that. You object to moving this time. Or do you want to wait 4 minutes? No, we 00:13:56
don't. 00:13:59
All right, go ahead and approach the party if you would. 00:14:04
And if I could ask, you are the property owner, tax agent, attorney or you're standing property owners? OK, welcome. 00:14:07
Nice to be here. 00:14:16
OK. Excuse me. I'm sorry. Does the assessor have a recommendation, initial recommendation with regard before we get started? 00:14:19
All right. Thank you. Go ahead. 00:14:27
OK, we built our house and and got a certificate of occupancy on 2017. 00:14:30
And. 00:14:38
We got our taxes the next year and our taxes were our full cash value was 286. 00:14:39
And our taxes were 4400, which I thought was pretty good. That was for 2018. Then in 2019 our full cash value was 604,000 and our 00:14:49
taxes went up to 7195. 00:14:57
So I wasn't too happy, so I called the assessor's office. 00:15:07
And I said, how can our taxes go from 4400 to 7000 in one year? And they told me that I only paid for a partial year. Well, I'm 00:15:11
from Alaska, so I thought maybe that's a fiscal year, maybe around fiscal year. So I said, well, it is what it is. We have a nice 00:15:20
house and if it's 7000, it's 7000. So then it went from 604,000 on the full cash value. Over the years, it went up to 1,000,001. 00:15:30
Which and the and the. 00:15:40
Limited went to 700 which means my taxes are now $9000 almost. So I decided to look at some of the other places around our place 00:15:42
and they're all paying 5006 thousand. 00:15:50
Dollars in taxes and and they're some of them. 00:15:59
They're the limited value is down South then also when this I got this file from the county. 00:16:06
And in here. 00:16:13
It says. 00:16:15
I was reading it and it says. 00:16:17
In 2018 your house was put on at 70% and AB5 code was applied. 00:16:20
Then it says. Then in 2019 it was changed to 100% and a B6 code was applied. 00:16:29
The B chords recalculate your LPV because you added new improvements that are more than 15% of your full cash value. In this case 00:16:38
it was your home where home was finished in 2017. I have the certificate of occupancy right here. So then we decided. I said, well 00:16:45
I wonder what AB5 code and AB6 code was? 00:16:53
So I look them up under the heel accounting thing. I couldn't find anything. I mean, I can present these to you if you want to 00:17:01
look at this is what I found on the They don't have it. This was I, I I'm happy to review them if you'd like me too, but I, I'm 00:17:08
familiar with what B code is. We couldn't find them. 00:17:14
I couldn't even find what it was. Let me stop it in my mind. B code is rupee. 00:17:24
Mike OK. All right. So it's coded in Healer County B code, but it's in accordance with what's referred to as Rule B for statewide. 00:17:31
So it is, it is what I'll go ahead. Go, go ahead. Go ahead. Sir, direct your comments if you would switch forward so we avoid 00:17:44
crosstalk, but go ahead and finish your opening. 00:17:50
So anyway I went back and I said well since I have a certificate of occupancy of 2017 December, we have done nothing to the house 00:17:58
since. Not a thing. 00:18:06
And I figured out if we were if we were figured at a hundred 100% in 2017. 00:18:15
In 2017 instead of. 00:18:25
The 286,000 full cash value, it should have been 395,000 full cash value. And then our taxes have gone up to 5% every year and 00:18:30
none of them gonna none of the things that someone we looked at, they go down, they're around us, but ours just keep going up. You 00:18:37
refer to your taxes or your market value. Well, both the market value and the limited cash value, but our limited cash value of 00:18:44
what would have been. 00:18:51
Done at 100% on 2017 would have been 395,000 for it would be like. I guess that would be 2018. 00:18:58
And then if you add the 5% right now at today's date we would for 2024, we would have been at about 529,336 for the limited cash 00:19:08
value. 00:19:16
Or the yeah, limited value, which is I assume what is the taxes are based on. So the reason we're here is because I think somebody 00:19:25
put the wrong thing in or the code. I don't know why they had AAV 5 code and AV6 code. I still understand what they are and and we 00:19:32
had their certificate of occupancy as December of 2017. 00:19:40
So that's pretty much our and I could say we looked at a bunch of other properties and it and I mean it's, it's. 00:19:47
We're I've been on the highest tax guy in the whole county. If you look it up, I wouldn't doubt it. But see the reason is that 00:19:56
we're from Alaska and you know, like every, every state has different rules on taxes where we have a place up there now we don't 00:20:04
even pay taxes. We used to live in Fairbanks and they have a little different system for the taxes, but but I was told that. 00:20:12
When I called when my taxes went up to 7000, I was only paid a partial year the year before. 00:20:21
Well, then, and I'm looking at it, I don't think that's true. I think I paid a full year because I looked up the counties on a 00:20:28
calendar year, not a fiscal year. 00:20:32
OK. 00:20:37
Anything else, Sir, with regards to your opening? I think that's about it. OK. And then I'm going to turn the floor over to the 00:20:39
assessor to respond. I'm going to ask them to elaborate a little bit for your own education with regards to Rule B and, and what 00:20:47
what triggers A will be OK has they has if they accept that request, they're not obligated to if they'll accept that request, 00:20:54
please. 00:21:01
Listen to it, but avoid cross talk with them. So avoid this isn't the forum to engage in conversation directly with them. If OK, 00:21:09
listen to what they have to say and then if you'd like to respond to it, I'll give you the opportunity address. Just address me as 00:21:16
opposed to the assessor if they'll elaborate on your your, your situation. I'm suspecting on what I'm only anticipating what 00:21:23
they're going to say and well if. 00:21:31
We'll walk through a little bit of Arizona history. 00:21:38
And you'll find that you're not alone. But anyway, I'll go ahead and see how they we'll see what they have to say. Thank you. 00:21:40
You're free to stay here if you'll because you'll have an opportunity for a final closing if you want to take it. 00:21:48
At rule B5 is new construction. 00:22:00
Partial complete construction and that was placed at the time when it was partially complete. AB 6 is when the improvement is 00:22:06
totally complete and it is moved from whatever percentage it was on to 100% complete and at that time what those will be. 00:22:16
What that does is it changes the limited value. 00:22:27
To the percentage of what the full cash value is. 00:22:33
A normal after Proposition 117, the limited value would normally just increase up to 5% yearly. In the case of a change such as a 00:22:38
new improvement, demolition, a split, or a combination, that's when a rule B is usually enacted. 00:22:49
Thank you. 00:23:01
Thank you. 00:23:02
And then with regards to your packet. 00:23:05
In regards to the packet. 00:23:08
Umm, we stand by our comparables. 00:23:11
And. 00:23:20
That's pretty much it. We stand with our comps. 00:23:23
Sir, opportunity for a file and closing. 00:23:31
I still didn't understand. 00:23:35
The Be patient with me while I give you a thumbnail version sketch of Arizona tax history. 00:23:38
Can I ask one question quick? Um. 00:23:47
That said that they when they changed that, that was in 2000 and. 00:23:50
18. 00:23:56
No, 2017, I believe when they applied it to your home that she's in reference to them. She refers to a passage of proposition. 00:23:58
What was that #117 Yeah, which was in 2015 was the path was when that the 5%. 00:24:07
The issue the issue is Sir. 00:24:20
Well, do you have anything else with regards to final closing with regard in respect to market value of the property? 00:24:23
Well. 00:24:33
Another thing. 00:24:36
You didn't do anything. 00:24:43
What? 00:24:47
Yeah, well. 00:24:49
After 2017, the house was built so. So my question is, how can it change in 2018 and then again in 2019 it doubled again. When 00:24:53
you're talking about doubling, you're referring to taxes or marketing. I'm talking about the market value and the full cash value 00:24:59
22 years in a row. 00:25:05
All right, so. 00:25:13
So your your question for me is how did your value change? How did my values change when the house was finished in 2017? 00:25:17
December. 00:25:28
When the home is finished is a different issue than the market value of the home. And I'm I'm left to determine from the board's 00:25:30
perspective what the market value is as of 2000, as of January 1, 2014. So that's, that's the scope. I understand what's causing 00:25:38
your, I understand your question, I believe. 00:25:47
And so. 00:25:56
I'm trying to address your question, but the answer to that question is outside, is outside of my jurisdiction. So here's what 00:25:57
occurred. You're almost finished in 2017. You the assessor marked it has 100% complete in 2017 to go on to 2018 roles as 100% 00:26:06
complete. Is that correct? No, they didn't. OK, Sir, I was asking the assessor. 00:26:15
All right, OK. 00:26:27
So that's, that's their position. Do you do you counter that position? Yes, because they jacked it again in 2000. 00:26:29
Vocabulary. 00:26:38
I understand your your concern is taxes and market value, but my assumption is, is that they're accurate. So what evidence do you 00:26:42
have that that market value that was assessed, not the taxes I it it, it, it really is, is. 00:26:51
It really is a of no regard to the board what the taxes are because that's a function of calculation. The calculation is based on 00:27:00
the market value, which ultimately, and here's the key part that's difficult sometimes to understand is it is related to limited 00:27:08
cash value. 00:27:15
So what I'm trying to explain to you, Sir, is and if if you've done the research, as it sounds like you're you're I'm I'm assuming 00:27:23
your wife, you know, is indicated that perhaps she has she's familiar with with the proposition in 2015, the environment at the 00:27:29
state of Arizona at that time was taxes were based on market value. We had just come out of the decimated recession of O seven O 8 00:27:36
where real estate was. 00:27:42
A mere percentage of a fraction of what it had been before the recession. 00:27:50
So because taxes became directly related to market value, there was a tremendous uproar in the entire state because obviously if 00:27:55
values went up 100, two, 100% a year. 00:28:02
Taxes would also increase by that. 00:28:11
So the citizens of the state of Arizona approached their legislature, which they've done, and they formed this proposition. And 00:28:14
according to that proposition, basically I'll try and boil it down, they they for all intents and purposes, froze the increase of 00:28:21
market value to a limit of 5% per year, that it could not exceed 5% a year, regardless of what was going on in the real world. 00:28:29
Well, the state said, OK, if that's what you're going to do. 00:28:36
What mechanism do we have in place to adjust property taxes if in fact there are changes made to property? And so this whole Rule 00:28:44
B was created and if you boil Rule B down, whether it's B5B6, it's not a tremendous consequence. The point is if there is a change 00:28:54
as the assessor stated, or and that change can be anything from demolition to improvement. 00:29:04
Completion. It triggers a recalculation of the limited value of the property, which is what the property tax is associated with. 00:29:14
So what does that mean if you never, what's the end result of that? Your neighbors that don't ever change their property, They're 00:29:28
going to, they're going to receive the benefits, quite frankly, of a very conservative tax. 00:29:37
Approach. 00:29:48
Those that change or modify or new build or do any change to a property, they are the ones that are really going to be left with 00:29:50
the burden of picking up that added revenue in the form of taxes. Because because the charge is given to the assessor. You must go 00:29:58
out now and you must reassess this property in a whole different. 00:30:07
Lens than what you previously had and that. 00:30:16
A pretty loose interpretation of the proposition. And so your home was completed 27/20/18 2017 but but taxes in the state of 00:30:24
Arizona are a year later. So so your rule B was triggered and the assessor was following their their so that would be for 2018. 00:30:36
Well, again, it's it's out of my scope. I can't even comment. 00:30:50
As to what what the rule, how the rule specifically affected you, I introduced the conversation has has hopefully an attempt to 00:30:54
try and help you understand the mechanics of it. I don't get involved in the mechanics of the ratios of the limited value because 00:31:03
again, my sole purpose is to is to do the best job that I can. 00:31:11
To to make sure the market value. 00:31:20
OK, of January 1 is accurate and I understand, I mean you're doing a great job. You've explained it to me. I understand it. OK. So 00:31:24
I would just say one thing or have one question, OK. In 2017 my home was finished in 2018 it went it went like the the limited and 00:31:34
the full cash value in 2017 was 122,911, both were the same. 00:31:44
In 2018, it went from that to two 76225 for the limited cash price value and to 286,922 for the full cash value, OK. So that 00:31:54
doubled basically right there. And then you're talking about market value, both limited and market value. And then in 2019, right, 00:32:04
which is another year, it went from 276,000. 00:32:14
25 limited property value to 522,769 thousand and the full cash value went from 286,922 to 604 three 58 so it got doubled twice 00:32:24
understood but. 00:32:34
If I I understand that, and again with regards to your final closing, do you have any argument with regards to your full cash 00:32:46
value that was assessed? 00:32:50
On your property as of January 1, 2024 that you want to introduce to this Board. 00:32:55
We didn't even go at it that way because we didn't we we turned in some comparables that we looked up. 00:33:04
Let's see which ones did we turn in. These ones, like some of the comparables that were given to us in this packet were had were 00:33:16
not add. 00:33:21
40 acres or five acres, I mean how can that be a comparable so that you know? 00:33:26
That was kind of a question to me that the county assessors office gave us a comparable of 40 acres agriculture 2007 4400 square 00:33:34
foot home compared to ours which is. 00:33:42
4500 square foot home. Well, they were probably using it as a comparable to reflect the sales price because I'm I'm suspecting the 00:33:53
property sold and they and they I don't know about that, but it's a million two and they have ours in. 00:34:01
I know, I mean the, the, the comparable approach that they did. I I disagree with two kind of but but the main thing is the other 00:34:11
part. So I guess that's all we have to say. 00:34:17
Well, based based on the, you know, as far as this decision, based on the ruling, you know, I'm going to enter and no change from 00:34:23
this and that'll conclude this matter. However, Sir, I, I understand your point and that you're, you're not alone. And it's a very 00:34:32
common typical concern, quite frankly from just about anybody that comes from out of state. 00:34:41
Because, you know, they could look at it and say. 00:34:50
This is really atypical compared to what I'm used to, unless you're from Texas. But aside from that, but aside from that, I 00:34:54
really, I really think, and I would encourage you to just go to the assessor's office, make an appointment with the assessor, have 00:35:01
them walk through with you the process they took. And, and I can't order them to do so, but I know the assessors, I know their 00:35:09
staff, they're usually very willing to set aside the time. 00:35:16
To help educate you so that you understand what triggered those rule B's when they and and the mechanics is really what your, your 00:35:24
concern is. How did the mechanics work out this way? How did it, how did I get my values doubled, you know, in consecutive years 00:35:33
twice. And I'm confident if you'll go in there with the same open heart and mind as you came here to which I appreciate. 00:35:41
You'll it'll be made very, very clear to you how. 00:35:51
When and how that occurred and if that leads to your satisfaction, great. One thing's for sure, it'll benefit your education. And 00:35:54
if you're not satisfied, you have time to still go to Tax Court. And where are we going to go to Tax Court? Tax Court is actually 00:36:03
you can go to the website of Arizona State Tax Court. It's in Maricopa County. 00:36:11
And you don't have to be represented by an attorney. You can be, but you can represent yourself and appeal the decision. But I, I. 00:36:21
You know, as I sit here today, I really believe the answers. I understand your questions, I understand the confusion. I really 00:36:34
think the answer is in the 30 to 45 minute conversation with the assessors office. Well, I'm happy to do that, but I've already 00:36:41
had a conversation with them and they've already denied it. Well, I understand that, but that's, but that's different. 00:36:48
They denied you for your appeal of market value because based on their market, but your issue really if I understand it correctly. 00:36:57
You're not really contesting market guy. What you're what you're really contesting is the mechanics of. 00:37:05
Of how we got exactly and they can explain that to you OK if they're I can't order them to do so but I would suspect that they 00:37:11
would be they're they're very okay servant leadership here. Okay thank you thank you thanks for coming have a good day you did a 00:37:18
good job. 00:37:24
It's just, you know, I can only, I can only call tigers with stripes and you, you brought in a leopard. 00:37:33
We were given the direction all right, that will conclude this matter. 00:37:42
Next item on the docket which is set for 10:40 and it is it is regarding parcel #304-19-113A as in Apple and that. 00:37:57
Appeal has been submitted by Mr. Steven. 00:38:10
Health. Is Mr. Hale the property owner, tax agent, attorney or or representative present? Not so. Now is the time to set aside for 00:38:13
the hearing. The Assessor's office is here and represented by. 00:38:20
Christina Hext and the tax was previously sworn and you do have initial recommendation with regard to this matter? Yes, the 00:38:30
assessors office recommends the value stays no change. 00:38:37
I reviewed the, I reviewed the packet and I've reviewed Mr. Hell's appeal and I've also reviewed the assessors. I. 00:38:48
Position with regards to the evidence that they've submitted in fact it and it's the decision of the hearing officer that a no 00:38:59
change be entered with regard to this matter that will conclude this matter. Thank you. 00:39:03
Somebody had mentioned something about #4 was that you that they're not? 00:39:13
Was it? 00:39:16
Oh, oh, OK, so the next one is. 00:39:20
Mr. John Violetti Valletti. 00:39:25
Familiar to either one. 00:39:30
I think it's Violet. Violet. OK, Are you aware if they intend on appearing or not? 00:39:32
I am aware of. 00:39:41
The appeal prior. 00:39:44
Yes. 00:39:46
You mean the one that we just heard? No, Mr. Violet. Oh, oh, oh. Of your level 8. OK. 00:39:49
Well, then, this is set for 11:00 AM. It's now about 10:42. We'll be in recess until 11. We'll reconvene to hear this matter. 00:40:00
Hearing today is the 20th of September 2024. My name is Chuck Johnson. 00:40:14
We were in recess awaiting for the next item on the docket. 00:40:23
11:00 AM and it is just prior to my night. 00:40:33
Thank you. 00:40:39
OK, thank you. The next item on the docket, petitioner's name is John Violetti. Is the petitioner, property owner, tax agent, How 00:40:40
do I pronounce it correctly? 00:40:47
Feel that. I apologize. Thank you, Sir. And this is in regards to parcels number 2061807320618071 B for tax year 2025 and Mr. 00:40:54
Violet who was previously identified. It's about 5 minutes early. You object going early or do you want to wait 5 minutes? Do you 00:41:02
need to prepare more or? 00:41:10
All right. If you would, we'll, I'll just begin with a little bit of protocol with regard to the hearing. So. 00:41:20
Mr. Board of Equalization and that is governed by is I'm I'm actually appointed by the helicopter Board of Equalization, which is 00:41:29
also in turn the Board of Supervisors. 00:41:35
The Arizona State statute has specific statutes that govern this type of hearing and also the jurisdiction with regards to this 00:41:42
type of hearing. My jurisdiction with regards to this hearing is very limited. My limited scope of jurisdiction is the 00:41:49
determination of market value of the subject property that's in question as of January 1, 2024. What that means is I have no 00:41:56
jurisdiction over taxes, tax rate assessments. 00:42:03
Level ratings rule via implications. 00:42:11
Or as such. So my scope is market value only. And in addition to my scope, the Legislature has placed the burden, if you will, on 00:42:15
the petition. What that means is my I am charged with an assumption that whatever's decision or prior to this hearing from the 00:42:24
assessor's office that it is accurate. 00:42:33
What that means is the so the the implication of that. 00:42:43
Is that the petitioner has the burden to overcome that preponderance. So what I mean by that with regards to overcoming the burden 00:42:48
or that the burden is met. The petitioner has the has the obligation to prove beyond not a reasonable doubt, but a preponderance 00:42:58
which means more likely so than not or 51% that the assessors determination is in error and that your position. 00:43:07
For your opinion is more likely the more accurate opinion with regards to market value, if in fact. 00:43:17
At the conclusion and then I'll render that decision at the end of the hearing providing them I can do so. If in fact I need to 00:43:27
take the matter under advisement, I will take it under advisement for 10 business days at which time the petitioner will be 00:43:33
notified of my decision. If my decision is adverse to the petitioner, the petitioner still has the right end. Time to file an 00:43:39
appeal from this board to. 00:43:45
It's actually two different bodies. 00:43:52
Superior Court here in Hedley County, which should be in the form of a suit, or to Tax Court in Maricopa County which hears tax 00:43:55
cases for the entire for the entire state. 00:44:02
At either one of those forums. 00:44:09
The presumption that the assessor is accurate is removed and it's more of a even standing if you will. There's no presumption of 00:44:13
of appropriate decision prior to or forward to. Are you recording, Sir? 00:44:21
Is that all right? It is being recorded and it is being recorded by the and you're filming as well. 00:44:32
It was just yeah, if, if you would, if you don't mind just continuing, please. 00:44:39
The. 00:44:44
The proceedings are a matter of public, but they are being reported by the clerk who is recording and you are entitled to a copy 00:44:47
of. You just need to go through that process to obtain it all right. 00:44:52
Where was I? Oh, so with regards to burden you are? 00:44:59
Placed with the burden of meeting that proof, if you will. 00:45:06
That the that the assessor is incorrect and you are more likely correct. 00:45:14
If I need to take it under advisement, I'll do so. A decision will be made within 10 business days and you'll be notified of that 00:45:18
decision, which still allows you time to appeal the decision to either one of the previous forms that I met. Any questions so far? 00:45:24
All right, so, so now let's talk about protocols. So the protocol of this hearing is pretty straightforward. If you're a 00:45:30
petitioner, I'll first have you sworn the individuals that are here representing the assessor's office, they were previously sworn 00:45:36
earlier today. 00:45:42
So I'll ask the two. Is formed by the by the board. This is a quasi. 00:45:48
Legal hearing. So there are certain rules that we are bound by. 00:45:55
Legislative legislatively speaking, however, it's not necessarily absolute. It's not a court of law per SE. It's a quasi court. So 00:46:03
the protocol is that the petitioner will have the opportunity to make an opening statement, basically present their case, 00:46:09
introduce evidence. 00:46:15
Introduce exhibits, present whatever case facts that you would like the that you would like the hearing officer to consider. At 00:46:22
that time, the floor will shift to the assessor who if they would like they can respond. They can argue their own packet or their 00:46:30
own package of evidence that they brought and then because the petitioner does have. 00:46:38
The burden of that we spoke of earlier. 00:46:47
The petitioner gets the final word, if you will, and so the form will then shift where you can make a final and closing statement 00:46:51
that affects directly to what the assessor previously submitted in a rebuttal. That'll be the conclusion of the hearing and 00:46:59
hopefully I'll be able to render an opinion Abilities no longer than 10 business days. Any questions, Sir, regarding the? 00:47:07
Any questions from anyone that's in the gallery that anticipates testifying or? 00:47:16
Or a petitioner or has a position with regards to today's hearing. 00:47:22
Yes, Sir, you may affirm. 00:47:29
You agree with it. 00:47:35
Yeah, you don't have to say I swear or. 00:47:37
You just have to affirm to it that the testimony that you're going to give is the accurate testimony. 00:47:41
I confirm, but I can't be squirting something like this. Affirming synonymous. 00:47:49
So if you choose to affirm, that's that's acceptable. 00:47:56
Confused on this matter and there's a problem but the. 00:48:03
Well, you're going to give testimony, right? I'm assuming you're here to present a case. You have the burdens overcome the 00:48:08
assessors decision. So I would assume that you're going to testify and give and give your case and we ask that you affirm that 00:48:14
that information that you're giving is truthful and accurate. 00:48:19
Not asking you to swear. 00:48:26
Asking you to affirm to it, to attest to it. 00:48:30
All right, thank you. Any other questions or concerns before we get started? All right, so as I mentioned, the next item on the 00:48:33
docket is I apologize, Mr. Bailet. Is that correct? Violet, I apologize. Let me go ahead and come to the podium, if you'd like. 00:48:44
So one other thing with regards to protocols, you would be kind enough to remove your hat. I would greatly appreciate it. The 00:48:55
other thing is the other thing is during the conversation and the dialogue of the hearing, I would ask that your comments, your 00:49:03
direction, your, your testimony, if you will be directed towards me. And then when the assessor gives their rebuttal or their 00:49:10
response to your case, they they will direct that same contact and comment towards me. So I asked that both parties do that. 00:49:17
Avoid crosstalk because anyone's got to make the decision. So I'd like to hear what both parties have to say, but avoid any type 00:49:25
of prosecutor. 00:49:30
Understood. All right, Sir, before we get started, let me ask the assessor's office who's going to represent the assessor? 00:49:36
Yes. 00:49:44
Christina Hunts will be representing the Assessor's office and stances and options. All right, thank you. And we'll have people 00:49:47
affirm and or swear with regards to their testimony. 00:49:52
OK, I think I'll read the right hand. Do you affirm that all information you provide in this hearing will be yes? 00:49:58
All right, Sir, go ahead. Do you have any questions before we get started? And did you did you get the copy of the appraisal that 00:50:06
I spent a lot of money on to get done? I did. It's here. It's here in your packet. But let me get my hands on it. Yeah, I want to 00:50:12
make sure you got that. Sure, of course. 00:50:17
That's. 00:50:25
Is it an actual appraisal in terms of completed? It's an appraisal report and and completed by an appraiser I'm assuming. 00:50:32
Yes, it cost me a lot of money to get this certified appraisal from a certified licensed appraiser, but State of Arizona I 00:50:43
understand it's a 26 page report. 00:50:48
And I haven't received anything. Additionally, as far as I know, I'm no expert on these things. I've never even been in this 00:50:55
hearing before. I've done this type of thing at all, so. 00:50:59
We don't. Whom did you send the appraisal report to? I didn't send it to you. I brought it into the office over here. I left it a 00:51:06
few days ago. The assessor's office or No? No, the clerks office right down the aisle here. If you don't mind, We'll just we'll 00:51:13
just. 00:51:19
Stand by for just a couple minutes to see if it's still up front. 00:51:27
You don't have it. I don't have it with me yet, but hopefully I'll have it in just short order. 00:51:31
It's my main reason for wanting to come here. I want to make sure you got that. That's why we're taking a couple minutes to get 00:51:37
our hands on right here now. 00:51:41
OK. That's my main. Is there one, did you drop off one copy or two? One. OK, not, not an issue. Thank you. We will review it and 00:51:47
then it's typical that another copy would be provided to the assessor, but that's not an issue. We'll we'll deal with it. But just 00:51:56
so you know, moving forward when you drop off the document, you kind of usually need to send a copy for both sides. 00:52:06
But Sir, I do have a document that has been placed in front of me, and it is from the Hewlett County. Excuse me, there's a cover 00:52:15
letter. 00:52:19
Regarding. 00:52:27
Your receipt of it. 00:52:27
And it the document is appears to be an appraisal report that was completed. 00:52:31
On what's referred to as a GP residential, which stands for General Purpose Residential Appraisal Report Form. 00:52:42
And. 00:52:52
It does include. 00:52:56
Photographs. Other exhibits include. 00:53:00
Narrative comparable data. Subject data. 00:53:05
Trying to find the oh and it was done or completed by Eric Ranta of Cornerstone Appraisal Services out of Mesa, AZ and it was 00:53:16
completed as of September 7th, 2024. And the date that's in question for today's hearing is actually. 00:53:30
Jerry January 1. 00:53:44
2024 Nonetheless, I find this to be complete in its entirety, and I'm assuming that you would like to have this admitted as 00:53:46
petitioners Exhibit A. Is that correct, Sir, with regards to your evidence? 00:53:54
And I'm now going to share this document with the assessor so the assessor can take a few moments and purview it. Are you able to 00:54:12
proceed with your opening without referencing the document while they're reviewing it? Or do you, or if you want to wait a minute 00:54:19
or two and give them a minute to review it because they don't have a copy of it, I'm fine to go either way. 00:54:26
Well, I really don't have a whole lot of faith at this point. OK, well, why don't you tell me what your position is? 00:54:35
Well, my position is that. 00:54:42
Properties and really such bad shape and that's backed up by the appraisal. 00:54:45
And the appraisals were a lot lower price than the assessor's office valued properties. 00:54:51
The properties are combined parcel. 00:54:58
Several properties. 00:55:03
And the appraisal for the same parcel, including the properties. 00:55:06
So it's the same thing. 00:55:11
It shows the appraisal. 00:55:14
The phrase value is far less than what the assessors office. 00:55:17
As a phrase. 00:55:23
So you know. 00:55:26
I don't want to sound obnoxious, but I don't see how ordinary citizen in finding come into a hearing officer against professional 00:55:30
accessories or whatever government officials with. 00:55:35
When eaters experience and they have all the advantages because they're presumed to be correct. And how in the world is an 00:55:40
ordinary citizen has never done this before, is not an attorney, doesn't have any other skills or any knowledge of any of this 00:55:45
entire process. 00:55:49
Going to possibly approve, I approve that assessor's wrong. I don't understand that. I just want to make that comment. So do you 00:55:55
offer that anecdotally or are you trying to offer that as into evidence or? 00:56:01
Arms I'm saying that's something that should be considered in the process somewhere because I've just been working again. Well, 00:56:08
Sir, it's your right to have a hearing. So that's what we're affording you. It's it's you're also your right to secure whatever. 00:56:16
Resources that you feel necessary to advance your position, but we're we're affording you the the right that you're guaranteed by 00:56:26
the Constitution and that right is being offered to you and we have set aside the time and we are in the process right now of the 00:56:32
hearing. 00:56:38
And so whatever evidence is I so indicated you wanted to present which it would include the introduction of of documents which 00:56:45
I've I've already accepted. 00:56:51
Exhibit A for the petition, it would also include whatever testimony which you're in the process of giving now, and it would also 00:56:58
include whatever outside witnesses you would like to call in or the hiring of experts. 00:57:04
So I, I, I, I appreciate your, your, your observation is noted, but from the viewpoint of the Board of Equalization, we're trying 00:57:11
to afford you every right that we are well aware that you're entitled to, Sir. 00:57:19
I just wanted to mention that I don't know whether that's going to have any effect or not. 00:57:29
I did already submit the truth. You have all these pictures. Are they the photos that are included in the appraisal report? No. 00:57:34
Those are his photos. OK, so those are additional, those are additional photos. All right, before we before we move on to that 00:57:43
item, does the assessor after reviewing the appraisal, have any objection with regards to admitting this under this document into 00:57:50
Exhibit A? Alright, so it's been admitted his the petitioner Exhibit A so ordered and it's a matter of record. Now, do you have 00:57:56
other documents or images? 00:58:03
Do you have these pictures with the notes that I wrote on the back? 00:58:11
I do not have photos. You will check and see if drop off. 00:58:15
And, and while she's reviewing that, do you have any other information or documents that you would like the hearing officer to 00:58:31
consider? 00:58:34
Well, the only. 00:58:40
No, I had written up these documents when I filed. 00:58:44
And appeal the assessor's office, which turned on my appeal. 00:58:48
But there are a couple documents where I listed all the problems with the properties. Would you like to have that submitted as 00:58:52
well? 00:58:56
Yeah, I would like to move. 00:59:03
But then those those documents, have you submitted those to the board previously? 00:59:07
Have you dropped those off previously? The documents that you referring to the assessor's office trying to remember whether I. 00:59:15
I thought, I thought I did when I filed the appeal. I thought I gave copies of all this stuff. Did the appeals do you do you have 00:59:24
it? You do have a copy of the, we'll call it preferred maintenance list for lack of a lot of the pictures were sent when the 00:59:30
appeal them to the board. 00:59:36
OK. Oh, all right. So we have received those documents along with those photos. Would you like to have those introduced or these 00:59:42
copies introduced has additional exhibits for petitioners, for the petitioner? 00:59:49
Well, if you have the pictures, I'm confused. This would be duplicates. 00:59:56
I'm assuming that they are. I haven't viewed them yet, but I'm still have the pictures. You should have all the pictures. 01:00:01
Because I didn't submit 2 sets, I just want to have this one set. I believe I only submitted them on the appeal I'm assuming. I'm 01:00:08
assuming if you have photographs or images or documents, you're going to present your case and reference those items once we have 01:00:15
them admitted as exhibits during the process of your testimony. Is that your intention, Sir? 01:00:23
Yes. 01:00:32
Well, so you. 01:00:36
I'm asking you to submit them now so that we can go through so that we can go through them. I wouldn't have access to them before. 01:00:38
I mean, I wouldn't. I'm not going to hear your hearing before it's time to hear your hearing. Right. OK, well, I have these 01:00:44
pictures. All right, So you tell me what you would like to submit first, the photographs or the document? These two documents. 01:00:50
Let's submit that first. I'm sorry, which one? 01:00:56
Documents right here. OK, do you have those? There's one document for each part. What? How would you like to identify the 01:01:03
document? 01:01:07
So we can label it as such. 01:01:11
Properly Valuation appeal for parcel ID, property evaluation appeal for the other parcel. All right. 01:01:15
OK. Thank you. 01:01:32
So the clerk has handed me a couple of documents. One is entitled Property Valuation Appeal for 237 N. 01:01:34
Should be 231 N Chisholm Ave. 01:01:45
But there's a 231 and a 257. She's she's just handed me 257 first, but I'm sure she'll find which one do you, which one would you 01:01:50
like to have submitted as an exhibit 1st 2:30 one or two 57231 All right. 01:01:59
I'll table that and now I have a document and associated photos in reference to appeal for 231 N to Children Ave. parcel ID 01:02:09
20618071 B as in boy and it is specifically A2 page document Sir. 01:02:19
Correct. 01:02:32
Yes, that's all right. So I'm going to label this petitioners Exhibit B for reference with pages 1:00 and 2:00. I'm going to set 01:02:35
that to the side before we go through it, so we can get all these entered his exhibits and then we can move on to your testimony. 01:02:43
There's also a package of photographs that are attached to. 01:02:51
It says pictures of slummy neighborhood. 01:03:01
Is that in association with 231 N? That's an association with this other. That's two. That's 257. All right, so there's another 01:03:04
package that is just marked 073, a plastic bag written 073. Is this an association with your document associated with property 01:03:12
231? 01:03:20
I'm just having trouble remembering exactly what I did. Can I see that? Well, sure. 01:03:30
All right, well, you tell me what property that's an association. 01:03:38
Is it 231 or 237 or both or? 01:03:44
AM 1240. I guess maybe I submitted the same pictures for both. 01:04:04
All right, so would you like to have them admitted as exhibits for both parcels? 01:04:09
Allow for which one, Sir? 01:04:18
All right. Thank you. 01:04:23
All right. Thank you. 01:04:26
There's a plastic baggie containing numerous photos that contain handwriting on the back that the petitioner has submitted. For an 01:04:29
additional exhibit, this would be. 01:04:35
Exhibit C. 01:04:42
All right. 01:04:47
And then in addition to what we've already admitted, there is a second packet. Are these copies of the of the other packets, Sir? 01:04:49
I have to go through and look at it and make sure about it. 01:05:00
I don't. I'm assuming you would have written on the on the masking tape pictures of slummy neighborhoods. I don't know what you 01:05:06
were referring to. 01:05:10
As far as I know, they're they're the same all right. So they could be copies, but nonetheless we're going to label them as 01:05:17
petitioner Exhibit D. 01:05:23
Just to separate with the understanding that you're undoubtedly going to reference them. 01:05:33
Synonymously. 01:05:39
All right. And then there is an additional document that's entitled at the top property valuation appeal for 257 N Chrishelm Ave. 01:05:41
parcel ID 20618073, correct? That's this additional 3 page document here and it looks like it lists items one through 19 and. 01:05:54
I'm assuming you would like this admitted has exhibits. 01:06:07
Where did I leave Bob E for petitioner? Correct, correct. All right. 01:06:12
Assessor, do you have these documents and have you viewed them and do you have any, do you have any objection to admission of any 01:06:20
of these documents, any of these exhibits A through E? All right, so order. 01:06:27
All right, Sir. 01:06:37
Floor is yours. 01:06:39
Well, I could say I don't know anything about this, so I. 01:06:43
Am I supposed to go through and read these or are you? Should I just let you read them and make your own? 01:06:48
Judgment about it. You're asking me what my preference is. My preference is that you submit your case through testimony, evidence, 01:06:54
documentation that would lead me to the desired conclusion that brought you here today. 01:07:04
However you want to do that. 01:07:15
OK, well then within certain parameters. 01:07:18
I'll just go ahead and read these then. 01:07:21
If you want to highlight it and go through it or draw out the facts that you feel are applicable. 01:07:26
And let me know which document which exhibit you want to you're referencing. I'm I'm happy to follow up. 01:07:34
OK, well. 01:07:43
The appraisal that I had done. 01:07:45
What is the appraisal for parcel? 01:07:49
20618071 B. 01:07:52
Yes Sir. Includes 2 houses. 01:07:56
Including one at 231 N Chisholm Ave. 01:08:02
That's my main focus because I only got an appraisal of that parcel. I did not get an appraisal. It's too expensive for my other 01:08:06
property. 01:08:11
257 which is where I live. 01:08:17
So. 01:08:21
My main focus, although I am appealing both assessments against, I believe they're too high. I only have appraisal for the one at 01:08:23
2:31. 01:08:28
And the one at 257. Since I'm over 65 I was able to apply for a freeze. 01:08:33
On Saturday, freeze when I freeze them. 01:08:41
Valuation I guess. 01:08:46
And so. 01:08:48
I'm not as concerned about that. 01:08:49
Because the taxes. 01:08:52
Evaluation or is that going to go up? 01:08:54
On that one, because it's frozen. 01:08:58
When you're when you say that one, can you speak specifically which parcel you're referencing or which property so that I. 01:09:01
'M referencing the one that I live in is parcel ID 20618073. 01:09:11
Now on the evaluation has been frozen, all right. And I'm not as concerned about that one because obviously so are you appealing 01:09:19
the market guy? I am appealing the market value because it's way too high. And just because it's frozen doesn't mean any 01:09:27
assessment should be way too high. I mean besides the fact that they might do away with this freeze law at any time. 01:09:35
Change the conditions or make me eligible or who knows what and so. 01:09:44
I don't appeal it now. 01:09:49
And something goes wrong in the future and it goes away, then I'm going to get slammed with a huge decrease. So I am appealing 01:09:52
that decision, but I am not focused on that as much because Sir, what I, what I would like you to do is it would it would help me 01:09:59
a lot if you argue 1 parcel at a time in sequence, whichever 1 you want, but instead of instead of pumping them out my, my 01:10:05
decision. 01:10:11
I believe we it's multiple parcel appeal, correct? 01:10:19
So my decision is going to be per parcel. 01:10:22
So I'm going to decide it accordingly. So if you, if you could formulate your argument on a specific parcel and then we'll we'll 01:10:24
go to another one. I'll start with parcel ID 2061. 01:10:31
8071B all right and and that is the one that you have the certified appraisal, all right. 01:10:39
So I'll just go through and cover these points as quickly as I can. 01:10:49
Don't believe that property is worth that much. 01:10:55
Evaluation which should be determined on the basis of. 01:10:59
What the property is worth, and that's determined by. 01:11:03
Somebody would be willing to pay for it and the properties in such bad shape it would never be sold for that and they and the 01:11:07
appraisal. 01:11:10
Substantiates that. 01:11:15
Because the panel shows a lot lower value. 01:11:17
Second point is that. 01:11:21
You know the part of Miami. Miami is not a great. 01:11:23
Fancy place, but the part of Miami is especially. 01:11:28
Bad even for Miami, and everybody knows that. It's undeniable that. 01:11:31
Other presence of other properties that are really bad shape, burned out houses, crumbling houses and rusty houses. All kinds of 01:11:38
decaying houses and ugly properties that fix the value of my property. 01:11:45
So. 01:11:55
That's one argument. 01:11:58
In relation to. 01:12:04
231 is the biggest property, biggest building on that parcel. There is another building, but it's. 01:12:06
Biggest one. 01:12:13
And as everyone here, it has no front yard. It's right on the street. 01:12:16
Yeah, there's a lot of. 01:12:21
Paint peeling and wooden cracking on the front porch where the rail is. 01:12:23
Second story Porches screened with his. 01:12:30
Has been damaged by someone throwing rocks through the screen, so it was very unappealing looking and. 01:12:33
Not I had leave. It's fair to stay. That is something I'm delayed more unappealing. The more ugly, the more damaged, the more bad 01:12:40
shape it's in. Is that going to affect the value? 01:12:46
Um, talk about the metal covers on the windows and lots of other paints, and they're rusty and unattractive. 01:12:56
The side of the building has many, many chips. 01:13:03
And restains. 01:13:07
And the service is very rough and appealing. Unappealing. 01:13:11
And that's where some of the pictures that I included. 01:13:15
Show the side of the building. 01:13:18
The electrical service of the house is very old and will not handle that electrical load. This is built a long time ago. 01:13:22
Long before most electrical codes were in place. 01:13:29
And. 01:13:33
It's my view, my contention that anybody wanted to fix it up and make it into a proper house and it would have to end up. 01:13:35
Spending a great deal of money on electrical. 01:13:44
Redoing the electrical service to the house, which would be very expensive and that also reduces the value of a building. 01:13:48
As is typical in old buildings, they have most of the pipes that are gas and water outside the building, which is very 01:13:57
unattractive and unappealing. Most houses they don't have that and have that bifes outside. 01:14:02
The backyard is very uneven. It's a dirt backyard. 01:14:10
Around the perimeter of the backyard is a very unappealing ugly wall of broken concrete blocks that stacked on each other to make 01:14:14
the kind of a. 01:14:19
Depends on one side of the yard is bordered by a remaining wall of a house that was burned out a long time ago, but the walls are 01:14:25
still there. The walls are cracked and also in very poor shape. 01:14:32
And then? 01:14:41
The hill behind the house is. 01:14:43
It has a wall containing wall made out of old rubber tires. 01:14:46
That are always overgrown with weeds because the people who maintain property don't do anything to about the weeds at the top of 01:14:52
the hill. I have a picture you can find a picture in there on this what I'm talking about. 01:14:59
If you want to see it, I don't know if you expect me to, if you want me to show you or what, but there's a picture in there. You 01:15:07
can see it. And I've, I've, I don't forgive me for interrupting you, but I've reviewed the appraisal in its entirety. I reviewed 01:15:15
the exhibits in their entirety and I skimmed through the photographs which support your statements in the document. So I, I think 01:15:22
I have a good understanding. I have, I have rather lengthy. 01:15:29
Expertise in the in the Arizona real estate market, including the Miami market. And so I feel like I have a good understanding. 01:15:37
Of your argument and your position. So umm. 01:15:45
I you so I understand your your your point of view that you're that you're arguing without. 01:15:51
Needing to go into real specific detail with regards to each physical characteristic. It's explained in what you presented well. 01:15:58
There's just a couple, just a couple of points I'd like to mention. Absolutely. 01:16:09
This house at 2:30 one has no air conditioning, which is very unusual for. 01:16:14
He also has a tremendous impact on the value of the house because. 01:16:19
Who's gonna buy a house without air conditioning that they wanted to put in any kind of air conditioning system? It would cost a 01:16:23
tremendous amount of money. There's a lot of house wiring is inadequate to support that kind of thing. And I can't imagine anybody 01:16:30
else except my parents, they didn't believe in air conditioning and they lived in the house without air conditioning or as long as 01:16:36
they lived in the house. And so it has another air conditioning. 01:16:42
I grew up in that house and I didn't have recognition when I was growing up. 01:16:50
I think that's a new **** for the value of the property for someone to have to put all that expense and. 01:16:54
In trouble? 01:17:02
Also, the heating in the house is not mentioned here, but the heating in the house is very poor. There's only basically a heater, 01:17:03
floor heater, gas heater for the. 01:17:09
First blower and there's really nothing. I think I have a good understanding of the physical characteristics of the problem. 01:17:15
I've read the appraisal in detail just so you're aware. I probably during my career read in excess of 10,000 appraisal reports so 01:17:22
I think I get. 01:17:28
OK. 01:17:37
Necessary to. 01:17:42
To stay anymore. No, I'm not I'm not trying to cut you off. I'm just trying to kind of isolate it into the facts of the argument 01:17:44
is the market value and you've articulated your belief of you know why why you're protesting the assessors market value. 01:17:53
Well. 01:18:02
Yeah. OK. Just one more quick thing on the 257 property that doesn't have wait a minute, are we talking about? 01:18:05
The police, my my simple mind can't handle it just just one at a time. So we don't, I don't understand anything. OK, that's all 01:18:16
I'm going to say for 231. All right, then let's then let's are you, are you willing to close your opening with regards to 2:31? 01:18:25
Yes, you are, in light of the petitioners. 01:18:35
New testimony and evidence presented today. Do you still want to go with your no change? 01:18:42
OK, go ahead. 01:18:49
Umm, my. 01:18:51
Sheets on the comparables. 01:18:55
I did separate sheets on each structure on 2/31. 01:18:58
And they still stay within parameters. 01:19:05
Of the current value. 01:19:09
Also we want to change the occupancy from a mixed-use. 01:19:13
Which is a mixture of class 3 and class 4. We're thinking about 2:31. 01:19:21
All right, and changing it all to class 4.1. 01:19:27
All right. 01:19:32
And other than that, the value of the state. All right, Thank you. 01:19:36
Your final and closing with regards to 231, Sir. 01:19:42
Just 231. 01:19:48
I don't have anything else. 01:19:50
All right. 01:19:52
This after reviewing the evidence that's presented by the petitioner and also reviewing the packet that the assessor presented. 01:19:55
The security officer. 01:20:06
And I'm not sure how these numbers right. 01:20:16
So because it's different on the appeal, so is it your position that your fair market value coincides with the indicated valuation 01:20:18
of the appraisal or what you put on your appeal notice because it's two different numbers. 01:20:26
Well, I had no idea what to put on, if you'll notice, right, you didn't have the appraisal at that, right? So I just put a number. 01:20:35
Well, the appraisal states 112,000 and the assessor has you at 147,559, correct, the full cash value. So is it your argument that 01:20:44
the correct market value for the subject is $112,000? 01:20:52
My argument is that 112,000 is a lot closer to the actual what I think the value is than 147,000. 01:21:01
Personally, I think the improvement was a little high, but. 01:21:10
I can't prove that, so I guess that doesn't really mean anything. 01:21:15
That's my position because the house is at such really bad shape. So understood. Understood. Yeah, I'm not asking for additional 01:21:19
testimony. I just want to have clarification on what your position is based on the evidence and testimony that's been presented by 01:21:25
the petitioner. And also reviewing the assessor's packet is the decision of the hearing officer that the full cash value for the 01:21:32
subject property be set at 115. 01:21:38
$1000 And then the assessor of course is? 01:21:45
Is with regards to the change, that's up to the assessor. 01:21:50
Your change of use for your internal goals yeah. So that will conclude the hearing with regards to 20618071 B OK now let's. 01:21:55
Trend the page, if you will. 01:22:11
And let's move to the remaining parcel. 01:22:13
Which is 20618073 correct? 01:22:19
Yes. And with regards to this parcel, does the assessor have an initial recommendation with regard to this, to this matter with 01:22:25
regards to the full cash value? 01:22:30
OK. And it looks like you have a, just so I'm clear, you have a full cash value of awesome. 01:22:37
Is it 20,000? No, no, no, excuse me, $108,163 Correct. All right. And the petitioner? 01:22:46
And your and the petitioners opinion, the value is $60,000, correct? That's what I put at the time. But again, I know. 01:23:08
Didn't know what to put there more or less going by what it was before they raised. All right, now with regards to your argument 01:23:18
to this specific parcel, the floor is yours. 01:23:23
OK, well. 01:23:29
They mentioned we we have these other exhibits that have that have already been accepted. If you want to reference those for this 01:23:32
parcel, that's fine. 01:23:38
It's up to you. OK, Well, I recommend that I want to present is that as in the case of the previous parcel, it's still in the same 01:23:44
slummy neighborhood. These buildings are very close to it should be kind enough to to. 01:23:51
Preclude using that specific term to describe. 01:24:00
OK, it's in the same neighborhood as the previous parcel with the same with burned down buildings and collapsing building and the 01:24:05
rusty buildings and. 01:24:09
You're an ugly building which effects not only the first parcel, but also every every other property in the neighborhood, 01:24:13
including mine. So what specific evidence, Sir, do you have with regards to the market value being erroneous in association with 01:24:19
this specific parcel? 01:24:24
Simply because I was unwilling to spend very large amount of money to get an appraisal for that. I understand that, but this is 01:24:33
the time to review. 01:24:38
Evidence, testimony, expertise. So what would you like to present to me to consider to prove that the burden that you have has 01:24:43
been met? 01:24:48
All I can say is that I believe that you have recommended that decided to lower the property. 01:24:56
Value of the other property and then that property was too high. Then the other property should be too high as well because it has 01:25:02
many things wrong with it, but they're listed to you. I don't have anything additional. 01:25:09
It's only there's only one thing I didn't include in my description here. What is that? 01:25:18
Second property that we're discussing now does not have any kind of central heating. 01:25:25
It only has one small air conditioner, which I did mention, but I didn't mention the heating has really no heating in it at all. I 01:25:32
think that's a fact that affects the value of it. 01:25:36
But since they don't have an appraisal, I guess I'll just have to leave it at that. Thank you, assessor. 01:25:42
Still with the no change. 01:25:50
Your final enclosing, Sir, with regards to the second course. 01:25:53
If you have don't really have anything additional say based on the information presented by the petitioner and also that of the 01:25:57
assessor is the decision of the hearing officer, there are no change being entered with regard to this parcel, you still have the 01:26:02
right to appeal to. 01:26:08
Superior Court or Tax Court? 01:26:14
That'll conclude this matter. Thank you. You both did exceptionally well. We have your exhibits that will keep in the file should 01:26:17
there be an appeal file. 01:26:22
Thank you. Thank you. Have a good day. You too. 01:26:29
You want to? Do you have a folder for yours? 01:26:44
You want to keep this in case. 01:26:48
That's appealed. 01:26:51
County Attorney or somebody more? 01:26:54
All right, moving along on the docket, next item on. 01:27:02
The docket is. 01:27:10
Parcel #304-0202, four East. 01:27:15
And the represented by Bain Law Firm on behalf of Chapman Payson, LLC is the attorney, property owner, tax agent or other 01:27:19
representative present. 01:27:24
And ma'am, you are, and you were sworn. 01:27:30
Oh, you're not? Oh, you, your council member of the bar. 01:27:34
The Board of Equalization recognized Miss Bain has a member of the bar with all of its rights, privileges and duties associated 01:27:41
with it. Thank you. And you plan on calling a witness? OK. 01:27:48
Any questions about protocol? 01:27:55
Absolutely, Absolutely. 01:27:58
I don't object to it. 01:28:02
I'm Jody Bain. We've been on a couple of calls. 01:28:11
So thank you very much because of everyone second COVID, I'm shaking your hand invisible. OK, just so you know how being rude. 01:28:15
Thank you very much and a point of order. Just so you're aware, Sir, I had communicated and Samantha may be in here. I don't know 01:28:25
what she looks like, but I spoke to her and I yesterday late in the day, we actually received an envelope from Healing County. We 01:28:31
didn't know that until yesterday. So I had emailed out the package. They said to bring hard copies, but I emailed it out to 01:28:37
Samantha. Unfortunately, I got a bounce back when I was sitting here, so I do have copies for you. I forwarded her the bounce back 01:28:43
that. 01:28:49
E-mail didn't get through and it might have been the PDF is too big, I don't know. That's your package that you have with you 01:28:55
though. Have you shared that information with the assessor or is that what I thought it was supposed to work and get there so I 01:29:01
can give it to her now. OK. Do you object review in it? Yeah, if you would staple or clip. 01:29:08
I ran out of big staples, that's why. 01:29:17
There you go, and before the hearing starts, does the assessor have an initial recommendation with regard to this matter? 01:29:22
No, thank you. 01:29:28
May I approach to hand you please? Thank you. 01:29:31
And I do not have a schedule with regular evidentiary or Exhibit 1, Exhibit 1B, but I don't have that many. That's OK. I just kind 01:29:34
of get hung up on it. Well, you were very kind and please order me around. So it makes sense to me. 01:29:43
Page numbers. We got that far. Yeah, you did. Page 42 was a sheet of paper that never should have been in there. So 42 doesn't 01:29:53
exist. Strike it. Or what? Oh, it isn't there. It's omitted. 01:29:59
Thank you. 01:30:08
And I have my phone in case I have to do math and look something up. You want this to be admitted as Exhibit A? Yes please. The 01:30:09
screen officers received a document that is. 01:30:15
That constitutes approximately 57 or 56 pages of. 01:30:21
Material and. 01:30:27
Is moved that it be admitted for this hearing has petitioners exhibit A. I'm sorry, you mentioned were you able to share this with 01:30:30
the assessor? Do you want to do you need a minute to go through it before to see if there's an objection? No objection noted. 01:30:40
So this document has been admitted, has exhibit petitioners, Exhibit A. All right. Thank you. 01:30:51
It's amazing what you think. You put in the file a week ago and then you tried. 01:31:01
Yeah, that's OK. Thank you. And I have extra material depending on the questions that you may have. 01:31:06
And I'm probably going to stand sideways because I was raised. 01:31:12
My rear end facing someone so. 01:31:16
Do you want to swear me in, or is it OK that I'm a member of the State Bar? I'm already in trouble for that, yeah. 01:31:21
Go ahead. OK, thank you. So the subject is Gila County Parcel 304-02-024 E, It has 4.68 acres of land. It is what I'm thinking is 01:31:34
a use code 1800. It could be a 1700. I didn't see it ma'am online. So OK, so I guess and I do have the use code page from the. 01:31:46
Department of Revenue manual, if we need it, I don't think we're going to get there, but I just wanted to say that I guessed it 01:31:59
was an 1800. 01:32:02
The subject is located in Payson. It is the it's not quite north-south, east, West. It's slightly crooked, but it is what 01:32:06
essentially is the northwest corner of West Longhorn. It's on page 2. The packet meets up with the 87 and the 260 ends. And this 01:32:15
is a dealership, American car dealership for Chapman, which has car dealerships in various places. 01:32:24
My understanding is this is. 01:32:34
On the cost model and the Full disclosure, Sir, in the 2020 calendar year for tax year 2021, I was on a remote call with you on 01:32:36
the same case. 01:32:41
Thank you. OK, just so you in case you're having Deja vu, it was telephonic because COVID is happening. 01:32:47
I I don't recall four years. 01:32:53
I think it was 2020, maybe it was 2021, but that was 2020. So the subject has 21,490 square feet of building with various years, 01:32:57
and again, it's on 4.68 acres. It's 203,861 square feet of land. 01:33:05
I'm not quite sure why it says it's 10.45 coverage because that is not possible. So that might have been an excel sheet error. The 01:33:15
reason we are here is the value of the property if you look at page. 01:33:22
Well, let me just while you're while you're coming through that. So if we heard it in 21, did we do something that rolled off or? 01:33:31
Or did we not? 01:33:40
October, October, November 2020 it didn't roll off but this last year and that's the page I'm trying to show you using. 01:33:46
It is page 16. 01:34:03
This is the page off the Hilah County website that tells you the history. OK, So what happened is it had been 2021 tax year. I 01:34:05
believe that was a year or maybe you're you had the the the healer county Board of Supervisors sitting at the Hilah County Board 01:34:13
of equalization through yourself. Set the value at a million 8:50 and then in 2022 would be the roll forward 2023 and 2024 it went 01:34:20
up and then in 25 it made a larger jump from. 01:34:28
9 to 2,000,008 and change. So it rolled off in between 24 and 25, between 22 and 23. OK, so we are not rolling off a freeze now 01:34:35
all right. So we've had two intervening years and now we're on the third year without a freeze and the Chapman folks are very 01:34:43
hands on. It's a family company and they looked at this and said I don't get it and what I was looking for and I can show it on my 01:34:50
phone if you want is I received an e-mail from their CFO. I asked can you confirm there's been no changes meaning. 01:34:58
Dodge Jeep Ram that there's no flagship requirement for refresh or tile or marketing and they said no, nothing has happened. It's 01:35:06
the same and I was there about maybe it's ten months ago now before Christmas and it looked identical to when I had been there, 01:35:12
but I confirmed it and he said yes there's been nothing done since 2020. So they asked me to look at this for the cost model. They 01:35:19
I confirm what they said as these things don't sell so they don't have. 01:35:26
An example of a car dealership building that then sells as a car dealership or is nothing. I even looked in Phoenix through a 01:35:33
couple things that sold from a car dealership and then were scrapped and became apartments. 01:35:38
They sell, but not with existing years. OK, yeah, because I was looking, I was trying to be able to hit the bucket up. Here's the 01:35:43
sales, here's the cost. I have been told Healer County does it on cost. If that's changed, then that's something for me to be 01:35:49
educated on. But I looked at and I probably did 8 to 1012 different cost models because I was surprised as I kept pushing through 01:35:55
on the computer system of Marshalls with the cost estimator or using the book, why I was coming in at a different value. And 01:36:01
that's why we're here. It's not meant. 01:36:07
Obnoxious or you're trying to be weird. It was just I couldn't capture what I'm saying at 1,000,008, let alone a 2,000,008. So 01:36:13
what you have in your packet is a series of information. Just for the record. Page one is the cover map subject. Page 2 is the 01:36:22
valuation line item for 2025 and a map of the topography. If you look at pages 3 through 14 you'll see photos. 01:36:30
Some of which I took personally. 01:36:40
Of the property so that you can see what it looks like, particularly inside beginning on page 5. So in the bottom middle of each 01:36:43
page is date stamped. 01:36:48
So that we have consistent photos through here and you can see on page 6 and page 7, the inside of the parts section as well as 01:36:54
the bottom picture on page 6 begins the crossover between the part section and the garage service Bay. And then the top of page 01:37:03
seven shows you that interior, what they use to push air and the smells and the fumes through and then. 01:37:12
Bottom of page 7 is the exterior if you're looking to see what the construction's like for the exterior walls of one of the 01:37:22
service space. 01:37:26
And then on page 8, you go to another one of the metal buildings that they have, as well as an interior shot to see that it's not 01:37:29
completely finished. 01:37:34
It's finished construction, but it's not built out like this room would be or in an office building. So you have the the web joist 01:37:39
and some of the other steel frame exposed and that's not abnormal, but that is not perhaps what would be built today. When you 01:37:46
look at what Chapman needs to build in order to get the contracts in the flag, it's just different. It's it's a whole new world. 01:37:53
They told me, especially the grease monkey, the Pitts areas. 01:38:01
The industry wants something that NASA would do so you can get off the floor. 01:38:10
I'm curious on page 9, so this area that's in the state that it is, is this intended? I'm assuming this is intended for added 01:38:16
service area. 01:38:20
In the world of laypeople, yes, in the world of the dealership people, they call it their service garage. Their service area may 01:38:28
be front facing for us to look pretty versus what they do in the garage. 01:38:34
This is standing in the work area for the staff members. 01:38:42
And it's not air conditioned, which that's that's a different issue. Page 10 again is a different shot so that you can see across 01:38:47
what it looks like and that it is not below grade for people to go under the vehicles. And then the bottom of page 10 is a picture 01:38:53
of what the assessing office, not the lady I've been interfacing now, but the previous gentleman I worked with in 2020. And 21, I 01:38:59
don't remember if it's tax year. 01:39:06
Had thought that this structure was a 2006 and Mr. Bauer said this is really old. That was there way before 2006. But I treated it 01:39:13
as if it's the assessor's year because in the end it doesn't make that big of a deal on the cost model if it's 1992 or if it's 01:39:20
2006. But I want you to know that the ownership said that's been there well before 2006. 01:39:27
And then page 11 shows you the exterior door of the second building. There's two structures, there's two different dealership name 01:39:35
flags that are next to each other. And this is going into the second one on page 11. And then you can see the waiting room at the 01:39:41
bottom of page 11. Page 12 is the hallway walking down. I took these pictures. 01:39:47
Page 12, second picture on the bottom that was actually sent to me because they were excited they got new vending machines. Page 01:39:53
13 again is what the offices look like, so you can tell it's not elaborate build out like a courtroom. And then page 13 does the 01:40:00
ceiling and the lighting that I took myself. And finally, page 14 is one of their great bathrooms. 01:40:07
So page 15 starts Hiller County subject information. I put this in so you could see what we see when we're online. Hence on page 01:40:16
16, it's the breakout from 2025 to 2022, and that's what's listed on the website. Page 17 is another aerial that shows you a 01:40:23
little bit more clearly what the roof line looks like for these two buildings on the parcel. For your purposes, I could take you 01:40:30
through every page, but for your purposes, not to bore you if you go to page. 01:40:38
38. 01:40:45
I went scouring for our electronic files from 2020 to try and find the building sketch areas that had been provided previously by 01:40:49
the assessor and I like Hit gold. So on page 38 and 39 are the sketch areas that had been provided to us a couple years ago that 01:40:57
were confirmed as in place by the assessor for Building 1 and Building 2. 01:41:04
You found these sketches on their website? No, I found them that had been given to me by the predecessor to the lady here today. 01:41:13
Do you have this on your website? Does he accounting have it on the website? On the website, yeah, they're not. 01:41:19
They used to be. We didn't see them. Yeah. And you click on the more right the sketch and the drawings and pictures will show up. 01:41:27
The main picture. We don't put all of them on there, but yeah, you can go. 01:41:34
So we got a bunch of errors and this is going to be a staff training moment because they're like, there's nothing here. And I go 01:41:44
in and I can see a little more. 01:41:48
But I will look again because I found these in our scans inside. Yeah, so just cause of the GI and then put in the parcel number 01:41:51
and then read down there, you'll see more you click on that more it opens up. And when your sketches and your photo should be 01:41:59
there in the system. If they're not, then we need to go. I'll shoot you an e-mail. OK. Sometimes our old status when they transfer 01:42:06
to a new program, they're there in the background. But they weren't saved, so we had to go back in and. 01:42:14
I appreciate it because whatever one of the staff members said here are all the because I I can tell people if you can't get 01:42:21
something, take a screenshot, put in the Word document sentence to me. You got to show them. You can't just tell them. So one 01:42:27
reason this is so thick is I have pages up. It doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. And I thought this is not the right website. 01:42:33
Something had had to have changed because it should be there. 01:42:39
It's OK, We'll figure it out as long as I'm sorry to interrupt you. I was just, I was really curious. So page 38 is the first 01:42:43
building B1 and page 39, pardon me, is the second building. 01:42:49
And what I did is if you go to page 40, and I've done this a couple different ways, I put the most, the one that I have the county 01:42:56
board or the state board people most asked me for in here. I do have an alternative that's slightly different, not on value, but 01:43:01
on how depreciation works. I have all the marshals with backup, all the cost multipliers, all the adjustments for the region I 01:43:07
can. 01:43:12
Make it ad nauseam if you want, it's in here for you. But on page 40, what we did is the same format that we had brought in for 01:43:18
the prior hearing a couple years ago, Building 1 versus Building 2 directly off the assessor's sketches. And we built it out based 01:43:25
on the occupancy, the rank, the class of the assessor had used. 01:43:31
And then we said what is the description? What is the assessor effective age, the effective age as of the data value, the life 01:43:39
expectancy on the marshals with chart based on the class. 01:43:45
And that it's in the section of either the office or the warehouse industrial and we directly took the price per square foot from 01:43:53
Marshall and Swift. So for office it was high further than the rest. There's $138 a square foot. Pardon me guys, I have not been 01:43:59
drinking water because I didn't want to stop 15 times to. 01:44:06
If you look at page 48 you will see the autumn blunt. You know you hit 50 and you just keep going. 01:44:14
If you go to page 48, this is the Marshalls with page for the office building. I highlighted in yellow because I can't always find 01:44:22
my rulers that it was D average and took it out to the cost per square foot of $138 and this square footage of 2167 matches 01:44:30
exactly the office square footage on the sketch and then we. 01:44:39
Which is 25 tax year cost M&S. That means Marshalls with replacement cost new and you can see the value and then the local 01:44:48
multiplier for Hilah County which is also in the package. 01:44:53
.89 which is interesting. It's the same multiplier it was four years ago. Let me let me interrupt you for sure just so I get on 01:44:59
the same page. So you're looking at a 21 Marshall and I'm actually not. This is what's interesting. We are looking at the most 01:45:07
recent Marshalls with page prior to January 1st, 2024. It's really odd. I did not get an office until January 24th. 01:45:16
So the most recent one I have is in here. I actually looked at it and said this doesn't make sense because if you look at the 01:45:25
bottom of page 48, it says the schedule for delivery November 23rd for your last quarterly update that would have changed office, 01:45:29
it never came. 01:45:34
So this is the most recent, the last version of the office that I received in 2023. I didn't get another office till 24. 01:45:40
And my guess is, you know that they come quarterly or twice a year. Yeah, yeah, they, they do. But. 01:45:49
So is it? 01:45:56
Belief that. 01:45:59
Marshall and Swift didn't capture any change between that those two time periods or no it is not. That's why I keep going on the 01:46:02
calculation. So what happened is it was very strange. We have really old on showrooms and dealerships that were older than office, 01:46:09
but office didn't come forward till 24 and I don't know why. It's normally A2 year cycle. You're supposed to get it and it stays 01:46:16
there for two years and you use multipliers and you move it forward. 01:46:22
And I don't know why it didn't come through. 01:46:30
Because we get those packets every quarter. 01:46:32
And some of them are colored sheets and some are not. 01:46:36
So that's why I wanted to show you that we were using the most recent for the data value at the time. And then we had an old 1 01:46:39
from 2020 from showrooms. That's why you show 2024 for February. I'm not going to give you something four years old. I don't know 01:46:47
why it was lagging. I did go to a class to keep trained for Marshall and Swift February of 2020 right before COVID hit, and they 01:46:54
said that they do the best they can and they do insurance and all the stuff. 01:47:02
I don't know. It was interesting. I cried at one point because it got a little complicated doing math on paper, but that's a 01:47:10
different issue. It was, you talk about going back to basics. So Needless to say, what we did is we went straight across Marshall 01:47:16
and Swift and then we did the depreciation based on what Marshall and Swift would say for the age of the property and the class of 01:47:23
the construction. And literally it's just math right across. 01:47:29
And then there's a note section here where the sketch area for the assessor shows a combo of showroom and office. 01:47:36
At 5060 square feet, what page are you, 40 the cost model, Sir. And what we wanted to make sure folks knew is that we used office 01:47:43
at $138 a square foot for the pure office and for the showroom that said pure showroom, it was $123 a square foot that matches the 01:47:50
Marshall and Swift. 01:47:57
And we did the same thing for the service repair garage. May I tell you why I ran two different versions? Sure. OK. And this is 01:48:08
for the assessing office because I try and be fair. Based on what? 01:48:13
My client sees it Marshall and Swift and what sometimes I'll hear from the assessing offices depending on what system they're 01:48:19
using. So on page 40 is a straight Marshall and Swift. It includes depreciation on the 4th column from the left, pardon me, 5th 01:48:27
column from the left says depreciation for Schedule 25 cost model. If you go down, you'll see that for the third, the second and 01:48:34
third item, the depreciation is over 60%. 01:48:41
Sometimes some assessing offices, depending on how they load their computer system will say our computer system maxes at 60%. We 01:48:49
don't go above that. So I also have a separate sheet for you that I'd like to give for the record that shows the Max depreciation 01:48:57
at 60% even though Marshall and Swift goes out farther than this. 01:49:04
So if you give me one quick second and all the paper for me to pull that to give to you guys because I also wanted to see if it 01:49:12
made a difference on value to do it there. 01:49:16
And I appreciate your patience because I can wind up pretty quick, but I want to make sure you have all the options. 01:49:25
Is this wrong? 01:49:34
May I hand the Assessor 1 and approach you as well please. So the difference in value is when you use the Marshall and Swift 01:49:36
depreciation, the value comes to after depreciation. So replacement cost new before depreciation on what you're looking at is page 01:49:42
40 is. 01:49:48
My little sticker over $2,344,521.00 of improvement before land. We just applied the assessor land. 01:49:56
With depreciation it becomes just the improvement, $763,872 is on the paper. When you change this and you just anything that's 01:50:05
over 60% just stays at 60, you don't get the extra depreciation. The value goes up from 2 million 344 to. 01:50:15
Hang on, I want to make sure I'm giving you the correct one. 01:50:27
Do do do hang on one second. 01:50:31
This is why I have glasses on too. 01:50:36
So it looks like the excel sheet did the math to the width depreciation but with that. So I will give it to you and I can load it 01:50:43
on the computer if you want, but you'll see that the for depreciation math did not do what it was supposed to do. 01:50:49
But it changed on the second. 01:50:55
I'm gonna put a #2 on here. 01:50:58
Went up about 180,000. 01:51:01
So you're sitting on that whatever is in a question. Didn't that upgrade put the data up right there if you can show it? 01:51:05
Thank you. 01:51:14
Not quite sure why I did that. 01:51:17
Yes, we have job security, human beings. 01:51:20
Because I actually do the spreadsheets, I don't delegate this stuff out, so I get more irritated than myself than anybody. 01:51:25
So Long story short, there's a slight increase. 01:51:32
So instead of with after depreciation, including land on the Marshall and Swift pure cost, the value comes to $992,197.00. If you 01:51:35
do it with a Max of 60% appreciation it becomes one million 091176. 01:51:44
So I thought it was very interesting to see the limited difference in this particular case and I wanted to be transparent with the 01:51:55
assessor needs to work only with a maximum of 60% because of the Department of Revenue, they give them a parameter. 01:52:02
So that is why we're asking for the adjustment. I will tell you I worked this so many different ways because I was surprised at 01:52:11
the outcome myself. I have added sprinklers and paving on top of it, even though some of that's already embedded in the value. 01:52:19
It's the numbers are the numbers, so I appreciate your time. I'm happy to answer any questions or save it for comments after and I 01:52:29
can sit down for now. What is your preference? 01:52:34
Um, I don't know if I have one, but while you're there. 01:52:40
So the land you took that from assessor, yes. 01:52:46
I guess that's a stipulated issue. It just. 01:52:51
That's the number that jumps out to me as being I looked at, I had provided land comps because when we went into the transaction. 01:52:54
When we went into the the transaction to look at it for the client to then file the paperwork I had given Thompson range from just 01:53:03
over a dollar to in the early forms, but they were smaller path sites for fast food and other things, yeah. 01:53:11
Almost every one of them came back rejected, but yes, yeah. So there was one. 01:53:19
And so I looked at this and I said, OK, the last time we were here before you, I was telephonic the issue. 01:53:27
Was part of the improvement and it was land. And that time we had a conversation about how is the land value and you made a 01:53:33
decision that the frontage, the limited frontage would be X and the back would be considered separate. And I believe the land 01:53:40
value I'm guessing was around 463. 01:53:46
463,000 Yeah, I would, I would think So what and and remind me you, you covered it both. So what is the actual acreage? The 01:53:54
acreage is 4.68 and the zoning and what's permitted there in the environmental impact now is really what changes how you 01:54:01
characterize this land. If nothing was there now and it was plain it would be different. And that's one of the conversations I had 01:54:08
with the ownership. I said do you think the land value yeah may have exceeded improvement it well, but. 01:54:15
The land value is different because it's been there so long with the format of the garage that the remediation alone would be a 01:54:23
disaster to change the use. So this becomes an environmental remediation issue. 01:54:29
Fun times. Sorry I raised the topic. I'm glad it's not an issue. 01:54:39
What I want you to know, I looked at it too, that we're not just ignoring it and going through. 01:54:44
You know to me, but it wasn't that much many times significant either. It looks like land went down a couple years ago, 01:54:49
improvements sort of hovered and now they went up and that's what threw them. I did not expect the cost model. 01:54:56
To be as low as it was when I ran, right, I expected it was gonna run around a million, 4,000,005, and I've gone over it and over 01:55:04
it and over. 01:55:07
So unless you address, unless you increase the land value, right, this is what we're finding. 01:55:12
But you know, I I has ever. 01:55:17
Long as I've done this for 15 years or so, I've never increased the value, although there have been occasions I've wanted to. 01:55:21
I'm not sure I can do that, but you know, I don't know. 01:55:30
I guess I could go Trump, but anyway so but. 01:55:34
There's enough of them, right? So, okay. 01:55:41
So it's your, your position that your full cash value as of today you're, you're at that. 01:55:48
What you appreciate your at the 992 number it's 990-2197 if you do a pure Marshall and Swift if you do the review where you Max 01:55:56
out of the what sometimes we are told is the Department of Revenue cap at 60% comes in at 1,091,176 dollars. 01:56:06
And that was my reaction. I've been looking at this for like. 01:56:20
And I thought maybe the math was wrong. This was wrong and I'm happy to be told I made a mistake somewhere. I've shown this to 01:56:23
other people that are appraisers for the cost model. 01:56:28
Well, we don't have the hearsay rule here. So what did they say? They looked at my math and they said that is the straight across 01:56:37
because I was in litigation and I hire someone like yourself that's an appraiser and they do the market costs and income assuming 01:56:44
they can do all three, which in tax what you're supposed to do all three even if one of them is then pushed away and. 01:56:50
Yeah, a lot of times appraisers that call me and they say does this look right to you? I think the only thing that they said to me 01:56:58
is Are you sure he will is 89% and I actually have the page in there that shows it for the adjustment. 01:57:04
So I'm happy to be wrong. Seriously. I mean, I've looked at this. I I don't know. That's that's what the math does and all the 01:57:13
pages are there and the taxpayer beyond me knowing because I was there, said there has been nothing new done here. Yeah, yeah, I, 01:57:20
I, I would, I mean, I believe you presented that evidence. But even notwithstanding that, I would take. 01:57:28
This particular taxpayer if the word anyway. They really try. Oh, they do. They do. 01:57:36
But anyway with regards to this issue. 01:57:43
Representing factual improvements. Yep. And we're trying so you know, the sketches are what we used. And I also looked at the cost 01:57:48
model that I had provided in 2020 the last time to make sure that there's nothing new. I sent it to the ownership as well. Meaning 01:57:54
is there a square footage change? Have they decided to use and they said no. 01:58:00
So that's where we are and the office at $138 a square foot for what it is, there is probably high, but if there's no adjustment 01:58:06
made for opinion, it is right out of the book. This is what it is. It's not fancy. The service industries not fancy. I think the 01:58:13
only thing that the client said. 01:58:19
And the assessor actually had said this when we were talking. It can be very hard to read the blue screenshot that you sent me. 01:58:26
Thank you because it's I put it in here because I was trying to figure out how to read it better. If you look at taxpayer page. 01:58:34
Page 54 is an example. 01:58:48
So the property record card. 01:58:52
And then the blue pages are the cost model begin on page 535455 and 56 I. 01:58:55
We did our best to try and read them. 01:59:04
And these are the cards from the assessor, which is really hard. So we haven't we looked at it. I still ran a separate Marshall 01:59:10
and Swift because there wasn't enough detail, like there wasn't the sketches in these cards. So I didn't want to pretend I knew 01:59:15
what I was doing. Nothing. 01:59:19
Anything else with regards to your opening? Closing? With regards to your opening, you'll have an opportunity for closing. 01:59:26
Assessor. 01:59:34
No. 01:59:39
OK. Any comment with regards to any rebuttal to the opening? 01:59:45
I'm willing to go wherever you want to go with this, but. 01:59:52
I want to go right, I'm sorry. 01:59:58
Oh, OK, no, I no, I, like everyone else in this room, just want to be accurate and and. 02:00:02
Puzzling, and so I was just curious. 02:00:13
If you could just opine, how about a little bit with regards to the background where we've been with this property since 21? 02:00:16
With the background on the time frame of. 02:00:25
The prior appeal, yeah, that was. 02:00:32
When Miss Henderson was here. 02:00:38
And. 02:00:42
That was a very. 02:00:45
Confusing time. 02:00:49
Understood yes now the concept were used by the assessor's office or of course comps that were not within this county because. 02:00:54
It's this is a unique dealership is very unique. 02:01:09
So we use some from some comparable areas, one in Navajo County and two in Coconino. 02:01:15
Yes. Where would that just go? Yes, going toward out of town, going east, there's the patch Toyota. Yes. 02:01:23
That and a couple on Findlay and Coconino. 02:01:36
Would you opine? 02:01:42
That Navajo would be inferior to Payson and Coconino superior as far as I mean, that's a wide brush, but just to kind of like lay 02:01:46
it out there. If you had, if you had, if you were to find two comparables, everything else being equal, 1 from cello, one from 02:01:53
flag, I would expect shallow to be South and perhaps slightly yes. 02:02:01
And coconut, Well, yeah, solo that area. 02:02:10
Is growing and as as you know, you probably go through there enough. It's yes, yes. So there's a lot of changes. So I'm thinking 02:02:15
it's still pretty close, yes. 02:02:21
You want to opine any further about God mobile industry? 02:02:34
I mean, it kind of seems like if it's if you're if you're at a great, if it's a great spot and a great flag, it's, you know, 02:02:38
lovely puffs and rainbows. Well, this isn't a good area. I I would think so yes, it is right at that. 02:02:47
2260. 02:02:57
Yeah, it's on the corner. 02:03:01
Do you have anything else you want to add? 02:03:06
I don't. 02:03:12
Thank you. 02:03:16
Final closing. 02:03:18
So when you come along into four corners of some of the comparables that were in the assessment material, yeah, and it's actually 02:03:20
a big problem just that it's really looking at the concepts that they were in couldn't find a lot right. So it makes a little more 02:03:25
sense now, right. But the. 02:03:29
An auto vehicle dealership truck type of a format the same what they pay for land as a Walgreens or the McDonald's or the shopping 02:03:35
center. So when I look at the four corners, I'm thinking Walgreens pays the premium. I do not understand that choice and I'm 02:03:41
putting that on the record. It's some of the stuff it just doesn't make sense to me yourself and vote. But in this four corners 02:03:47
you have a lot of center. You have a McDonald's and you have a Walgreens and then this corner for the subject it is what it is 02:03:53
the. 02:03:59
The important thing is, can you come up a little bit closer? We're not picking you up. Are these microphones OK? I'm sorry. They 02:04:05
just look like Star Trek. 02:04:09
That's OK, That's that's a good thing. One of the pieces that is important here is I also do transactional work and litigation on 02:04:14
one of those weirdos. It's old enough one way and old enough the other. And we worked with a dealership and I'm sanitizing this 02:04:21
very similar to the subject ownership where they bought property and they bought dealerships. They came in and they took over 02:04:27
someone else's like a hatch. And it's more than just. 02:04:34
The sale price is more than just the real estate as if you're selling it and that's, I mean, you know, that's the difficulty of 02:04:41
getting the business value out of the flag. One of the questions I asked the ownership here is why can this subject at its age and 02:04:48
how it looks still functions. And he said when we are ever under review, we keep telling them don't the, the set up in the format 02:04:55
does not allow the full refresh that if you were doing this today you would need. 02:05:03
So they keep saying just let us do it and leave it alone. You need someone in the geographic area to service these vehicles 02:05:10
because it's not cost effective and reasonable for this small site to put this facility on here for inventory anymore. 02:05:17
So it would have to change, maybe it would be a value center or something else, but I'm not saying that's what they're trying to 02:05:25
do, but that's what they're worried about in the future. But we have to focus on current use. For what it's worth. Did you want to 02:05:31
add to your final closing? That's what I was just saying. Thank you, I appreciate it. 02:05:37
Well, thank you both of you, both the petitioner and also that of the assessor. It's obviously a challenging 1. There's a lot of 02:05:45
information, a lot of things to take into consideration to really analyze what the, you know, market value of the property is and 02:05:51
for those reasons. 02:05:57
To serve both the petitioner and also that of the county. 02:06:05
I'm going to take this under advisement. I'll render decision within 10 business days and you'll both be notified with regards to 02:06:08
those results and of course either one are eligible for. 02:06:14
Appeal eligible. 02:06:20
Won't be the right? 02:06:24
Yeah. So thank you. Thank you. It's good to see you again. Now I recall everything. 02:06:33
I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry. Thank you. All right. 02:06:41
OK, let me just package this up. 02:06:47
Is there anything else before we release? 02:06:56
No, thank you for thank you for coming. And oh, I didn't know that gentleman was with you. I, I assume so because I, I thought you 02:07:03
came in together, but I thought Rex, he was an additional or a different petitioner. Welcome. 02:07:10
The assessor has a camera and our clients want to know, but if someone says it's being recorded, we're fine. So we were trying to 02:07:19
be squirrel. 02:07:23
Well, you know, thank you very much. 02:07:32
Yeah. 02:07:37
I just take my agenda. 02:08:11
I'm sorry. 02:08:15
No agenda. 02:08:19
Thank you. Thanks. Sorry, All right, next. 02:08:25
Next item on the docket. 02:08:31
High is set for 11:40 and my heavens, Oh my, we're way late. I apologize I'm sorry. I'm well into yours. No problem not I'm well 02:08:34
into your lunchtime. But next time on the dock at Delta Property tax on behalf of Circle K store parcel 30256002 after the 02:08:43
petitioner, tax agent, property owner or other representative here. Not so the assessor is here and represented by. 02:08:52
Christina Hacks. 02:09:01
And being previously sworn, does the assessor have initial recommendation with regard to this matter? Recommends a no change. 02:09:03
And the full cash value is $1,682,357, correct? With an LPV of 761, Yeah. 02:09:12
OK. 02:09:24
Is there anything you want to proffer or? 02:09:26
Based on the information presented by the petitioner and also by the Assessor's Office, the Hearing Officer has reviewed all 02:09:30
material that has been filed and presented and it is the decision of the hearing officer that had no change to be entered with 02:09:37
regard to this matter. Full cash value will be affirmed at $1,682,357. 02:09:43
All right. Thank you, Sir. Thank you. Next item. And the last, is this the last? 02:09:50
So one more. Oh, OK. 02:09:57
And the next item on the docket is Circle K 30417017. A is the property and supposedly or not supposedly, excuse me, they are 02:10:02
represented by Delta property tax is the tax agent, property owner, attorney or other representative present? Not so. The 02:10:09
assessor's office is here and represented by Christina Hanks being previously sworn disease has results have initial 02:10:16
recommendation with regard to this matter. 02:10:23
No change. 02:10:30
And the hearing officer has reviewed the entire packet has presented by the assessor and also that as a petitioner in its entirety 02:10:31
and based on the information contained presented and also. 02:10:37
The. 02:10:44
The burden that is placed on the taxpayer, the hearing officer issues and order of no change with regard to this matter, which is 02:10:47
not concluded and the next item. 02:10:53
Is this? 02:11:00
Oh, that's right. No, we right. We are correct. Good job. 02:11:07
Oh, she being the. 02:11:12
Oh, that's right, yeah. 02:11:19
Yeah, all right, next item on the docket is parcel #304-57-233. If you have a motion for point of order, no change. All right, no 02:11:21
change. And this was presented by improper format and unaccepted documentation by the Commissioner. James and Victoria Young, 02:11:31
however, has been doctor for a hearing. Hearing officer has reviewed the handwritten information and found that it does not meet. 02:11:41
For Dor, state of Arizona and also Yuba County, based on that information hearing, the hearing decision is therefore entered as no 02:11:51
change that will conclude this matter. And that concludes that's everything, right? That concludes everything for 2025 property 02:11:59
tax valuations for Healing County. We will stand adjourned. Thank you all. Thank you. 02:12:07